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 Kato HO Amtrak P42s... AT LAST!!!
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2013 :  16:15:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got the e-mail from Kato yesterday, and I was very surprised. After all these years of begging, they are finally releasing the Amtrak P42 in HO. They are introducing truck-mounted motors in these new locomotives. I don't know how truck-mounted motors work, nor do I understand the concept or the mechanism. My worry would be that the two motors would not match. Is this a valid concern? Does anyone here have a locomotive with truck-mounted motors? If so, how does it run, and how is its traction?

Thanks.

swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 05/11/2013 :  23:23:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This just went up this week:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MacUY1_YjeU

Anyone else notice how much the locomotive lurches as it starts out?

I still have a bad feeling about this coreless-motor design. It looks like the motors are either fighting each other or otherwise stuttering for some reason. The pulling power demonstrated in the video is pretty impressive, but I'd be worried about these coreless motors overheating under load. And, how well would they handle sustained, high-speed running, in terms of motor temperature?

For anyone who's run locomotives with coreless motors, what did you think of them?

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DrifterNL
Hobo

Netherlands
82 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2013 :  01:07:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by swchief3They are introducing truck-mounted motors in these new locomotives. I don't know how truck-mounted motors work, nor do I understand the concept or the mechanism. My worry would be that the two motors would not match. Is this a valid concern? Does anyone here have a locomotive with truck-mounted motors? If so, how does it run, and how is its traction?
Thanks.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lLK2tKssj5M


Born and lived in Ont. Canada
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2013 :  05:21:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a link to the Kato website, where they've just posted photos of AMTK 68. Scroll down to "Product Highlight Photos".

http://www.katousa.com/HO/P42/index.html
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sschaer
Moderator

911 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2013 :  20:09:48  Show Profile  Visit sschaer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
glad to see you posting again.
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2013 :  23:47:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sschaer

glad to see you posting again.



Thanks!
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  00:33:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been reading discussions on other forums about these new P42s, and the reviews are mixed. The Kato model has several nice things on it, but it also has several errors. The Athearn models, to my eye, are much more correct. What's even more disturbing than the errors on the Kato model is Kato's dismissal of customer concerns about these errors. I've read about people having contacted Kato directly with their concerns, only to be told their concerns were unfounded. It's as if to say, "We're Kato. Therefore, we're perfect. We don't make mistakes." Wow.

Here are the discrepancies I see on the Kato model:

1. Nose. The nose should have a bit of an arc to it, from left to right. The Kato nose is flat.
2. Windshield. The separate windows are good, and are more of a match to the prototype than the Athearn single-piece windshield, but the Kato windows are too large.
3. Bolted nose. It should be flush with the body. The Kato rendition is raised.
4. Placement of front plow assembly. To my eye, the assembly is too far back.
5. Rear pilot. Rear pilot is a bit too high, and is missing the undercarriage under the coupler.
6. Ladders. Much too large, and thus out of dimension.
7. Side mirrors. Missing. (The Athearn units have mirrors.)
8. Windshield wipers. Missing. (The Athearn units have the wipers.)
9. Vents at rear of unit. They extend down a bit too low. They should stop just before the lower carbody angles inward.

The Kato model does have some good things about it.

1. Graphics. The graphics are nice. They did a good job with the logo and wave. The wave is the most current version, with all roof warning labels removed. Also, the wave has been altered to run along those top vents on the front half of the locomotive, rather than going above them. (Athearn did the "old" version of the wave, where the blue goes slightly above those vents, rather than running flush. The Athearn also has the warning labels on the roof.)
2. Lights. In addition to the headlights, the ditch lights and numberboard light up. There are red markers on the rear that light up, as well.
3. GPS dome. The Athearn units don't have this. Kato did something really cool with their GPS dome. They built it to be a toggle switch, and that switch changes the light configurations, i.e., by flipping this switch, you can turn off the lights you don't need, depending on how you're running the engine. Pretty slick.
4. Cab interior. Though the photos don't show it well, there is a cab interior. The Athearns don't have this.
5. Lower-body detail. The Kato has all the prototypical underbody detail. The Athearn does not... other than the air tanks and battery boxes.

As for me, I'm staying with my Athearns. I've got well over 30 of those things, and I've invested too much in them to change now. To that end, the Kato units are awfully expensive; they're nearly $200 apiece. Plus, I'm still leery of those truck-mounted motors. (That's only a gut feeling, though, since I haven't actually run anything with a coreless motor.) As far as overall appearance goes, the Athearn unit looks more correct to my eye. The Athearns are prone to have failures on the road (e.g., graunching, binding, thrown driveshafts, noisy drives, etc.), which is not good, but those motors are durable. They don't always run WELL, but they do always seem to RUN. Athearn has historically been very generous with their offerings. All paint schemes have been done, including the heritage schemes from 2011, and we've had LOTS of road numbers to choose from. Hopefully, Kato will be as generous. Remains to be seen.

Anyway, that's my $.02.
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sschaer
Moderator

911 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  09:11:02  Show Profile  Visit sschaer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
i have absolutely no experience with h0 scale products. but it is similar in n-scale. kato has by far the best drive available. but the shells lack details, colors are often not correct and sometimes even the shell is just a compromise.

personally i prefer perfect runners over perfect lookers. you don't see details from 3ft but you notice if an engine runs fine or not.

have fun
sandro
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  16:48:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sschaer

i have absolutely no experience with h0 scale products. but it is similar in n-scale. kato has by far the best drive available. but the shells lack details, colors are often not correct and sometimes even the shell is just a compromise.

personally i prefer perfect runners over perfect lookers. you don't see details from 3ft but you notice if an engine runs fine or not.

have fun
sandro



That's how I am with my Amtrak F40PH locomotives. I have three Kato F40s and eight operable Walthers F40s, and the Katos are what I always end up running. I've had some trouble with the Katos, but managed to get those bugs worked out. I got mad at Kato because of their attitude, and decided to go back to the Walthers F40s on principle. Ended up returning to Kato, though, because they simply run better... as they should, given their price. Both companies' F40s have errors on them (Kato's nose is too short and trucks are too small, while Walthers' nose is a fraction too long and their trucks are misplaced), but the Kato units perform better.

I guess I'm the other way around, though, when it comes to the Athearn P42 vs. Kato's new P42. I'm spending a lot of time with my Athearns right now, and I'm getting them to run better. What's working for me right now is lubing the Athearn motors with Woodland Scenics' Hob-E-Lube Premium Oil, Medium HL663. That's the best stuff I've found to date. I work it into the motor shafts on both ends, and I really have to make sure it gets worked into those bearings. These newer Athearn RTR motors have problems with dry bearings, which is the principal cause of that "graunch" sound, where the motor makes this loud groaning noise and slows down. I lube the rear shaft pretty liberally, and I lube on the flywheel side of the motor shaft, because there's a washer on the inside part of the bearing assembly, and that washer will block the lube from getting into the bearing. I follow the same strategy on the front bearing, i.e., lubing it on the flywheel side, because there's a washer on the inside of that bearing assembly, as well. I have to be careful lubing the front assembly because, in spite of that little washer in there, the oil can splatter onto the commutator and sludge it up. That's an easy fix, though... just spin the thing and rub a clean cloth against it, and it'll take the oil right off. Also, it's good to clean the crud out of the commutator grooves. Those things will fill up with spent carbon and dirt and, when they do, they will make the motor short-circuit and start acting weird.

Once I lube the motor and clean up any mess, I then run the unit slowly, to help the lube work in... and also to keep the freshly-applied lube from flying off in a high-speed test. I will usually run one slow lap forward, and then one slow lap backward. I've found that letting the unit sit for a few hours after lubing, or even a day, seems to help that lube get in there. So far, the results have been AMAZING. The locos run very smoothly and very dependably after lubing, with minimal maintenance. The drive noise and problems seem to go away after this treatment. Occasionally, the commutators will need to be wiped clean, because there will be residual lube from the front motor shaft. Other than that, I've only had to clean the wheels. I've treated nearly my entire Athearn fleet with this lube, and all are running better. There are still a few units that try to start graunching and otherwise acting up. Sometimes, a little extra lube will help. Sometimes, though, I have to just play around with the motor and physically manipulate it, because those magnets seem to get slightly out of position. Don't know how that happens, because the plastic molds should keep those things stationary.

The results from all the above continue to be good. We'll see how long these good results last.
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 07/18/2013 :  03:15:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For anyone interested, here's a follow-up to my entry from last month about my Athearn P40/P42 fleet. The fleet is still running strong after the "lube jobs". The engines are running smoothly and quietly, and they have really good power and acceleration. Drive problems are minimal to zero. I did have a problem a week or so ago with a couple units I was MU-ing, but the problem was that the units didn't match speed. They were WAY off from each other... lead unit was super fast, and the trail unit was super slow. Even so, neither unit failed.

Let's hope things continue to go this well.
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swchief3
Passenger

USA
142 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2013 :  18:05:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, unfortunately, the chariots are starting to turn back into pumpkins. I've had a rash of failures with my Athearn units. Same problems... same failures... in spite of all the maintenance I've done on them.

I have ordered one of the new Kato P42s to try out, in spite of all my reservations. (There's only one way to find out how these things will run.) It's on its way, and may arrive as soon as tomorrow. I'll let you know how things go. BTW, I read on another forum that the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago bought and ran all three units on their layout, where trains run nonstop all day long, day in and day out, and the engines ran fine and did not overheat.
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